Monday 9 February 2015

Mapping the Neolithic Spread by Genetics

Good starting point :

Too much stuff to summarise.


  1. Is this your 'homework' Tim?

    The classic answer would be:

    "Patrick McMahon analyzed the geographic distribution of the members of the L21 project at FTDNA in January 2011 and made the following observation.

    Assuming today's testers are a random sample, these results support the views put forward by many that the L21 SNP occurred somewhere north of the Alps (about 4,000 years ago) and the L21 population drifted Northwest over time concentrating in the western fringes of the British Isles mainly in Ireland. North of the Alps would most likely be Germany or France where the original (presumed) high numbers would over time be replaced by further waves of migrants or simply driven North by more advanced civilisations.

    How they made their way to Ireland is open to conjecture. The shortest sea journey then (3,000 to 4,000 years ago) as now would be from France to Southern England. However, they could have made their way directly to Ireland from Brittany (or via Cornwall or Wales). The figures support the view that there was no significant migration towards the Eastern parts of Europe and only minor ones to Scandinavia and Spain with the main thrust through Northern France to Britain and Ireland. Archaeologists have termed these peoples (and the proto-Collas are part of this population) as 'Bronze-age' Britons"

    Which will get you full marks! Sadly, its a load of academic 'mumbo-jumbo' and not even close to the truth!!.

    What this maps shows is that the traditional East to West migration myth is a nonsense - what It does show that at sometime before 2000BC a mutation occurred in the R1 Haplogroup with a body of people who lived in Ireland/Scotland.

    These people are a mariner race as the distribution map (like Iceland and Sicily) would not be possible by walking. - so sea faring ships/boats (not currachs!!) are plentiful by 2500 BC as the original R1 haplogroup needed to get to Ireland/Scotland in the first place by boat.

    The most interesting aspect is the trading between France and Ireland - which can be seen by more detailed maps of Ireland which show these groups are more intense in the Southern Ireland than the north.

    But stating the obvious in archaeology essays is pointless exercise as the academics will disqualify you as they need a 'peer reviewed' reference and as the present breed of archaeologists clearly, understand the consequences of simple distribution maps, so have to rely on others to think for themselves.


    1. "These people are a mariner race as the distribution map (like Iceland and Sicily) would not be possible by walking. - so sea faring ships/boats (not currachs!!) are plentiful by 2500 BC "

      The presence of L21 in Iceland is due Irish and Scots slaves or ,less likely settlers . In common with all the human settlers they arrived over 2500 years later than 2500 BC .

    2. Even your abuse is pathetic Daisy .
      But that's is all there is , no content .
      Don't think it puts anyone off pointing out your errors .

      Only you could be capable of suggesting that the presence of L21 in the one country in Europe we could be sure of never having been inhabited in prehistory was due to " ancient mariners " . As for the actual presence of L21 in Iceland read the history of the country and attempt to read something on geneticvs , that might clarify another problem .
      Just as well that the distribution map was only of Europe ,otherwise we would have had the L21 mariners in Oz the US and Canada .
      There are some that don't believe you are actually serious , that it is all a joke . Whatever , keep it up .

    3. 1)”According to Landnámabók, the settlement of Iceland began in 874 CE when the Norwegian chieftain Ingólfr Arnarson became the first permanent settler on the island.[8] In the following centuries, Scandinavians settled Iceland, bringing with them thralls of Gaelic origin .” Wiki . Note the date of settlement and mention of “ thralls “
      2) The map is a contemporary distribution of L21 .
      3) “These people are a mariner race as the distribution map (like Iceland and Sicily) would not be possible by walking - so sea faring ships/boats (not currachs!!) are plentiful by 2500 BC”
      3) Ignores a simple fact that Iceland was uninhabited in 2500 BC ,it also ignore the fact that contemporary distribution maps are just that , they are not the distribution of particular clades or haplogroups in prehistory . That explains why 3) is idiotic . Not just repeating “idiotic “like an unthinking mynah bird but explaining why .

      Click on the link supplied by Tim , click on R1b , scroll down “The stronger presence of L21 in Norway and Iceland can be attributed to the Norwegian Vikings, who had colonised parts of Scotland and Ireland and taken slaves among the native Celtic populations, whom they brought to their new colony of Iceland and back to Norway. Nowadays about 20% of all Icelandic male lineages are R1b-L21 of Scottish or Irish origin. “

    4. Well using your famous 'deductive' logic Sherlock - should we now accept that the French also took massive numbers Celtic 'slaves' during the Norman conquest??

      LOL - what a numpty!!

    5. That's a good response to real data .
      And still you managed to get in yet another error .
      How many times have you been told that Sherlock never used deductive logic . It takes years for the most basic facts to even begin to sink in Daisy .
      Keep ruminating it might click one day .
      As usual failed to respond with anything meaningful when presented with real data .
      Don't you realise that the empty minded mynah bird response of numpty etc when you evade the errors makes you look even more ridiculous .

    6. "That's a good response to real data"

      No it's a sarcastic response to someone that can't read real data!!

      The map shows migration patterns - slaves do not make any significant differences to Haplogroups as my 'sarcastic' comment about Rome proves - as they had the greatest number of slaves in history, yet Italy does not have all these 'slave' haplogroups in any significant numbers its current population.

      Archaeologists are now finding evidence to show that boats existed in greater numbers and at an earlier date in the past than previously believed. My last blog showed how the BBC and Cambridge University now supports an aquatic civilisation that could build 'industrial' sized facilities which helps to prove that this 'hunter-gatherer myth' perpetuated by anthropologists and archaeologists is a load of academic rubbish!!

      As Mark Knight quite rightly states that in this one tiny area of Britain there were HUNDREDS of boats supporting families (that lived on the boats) at the same time as mutation R-L21 was taking effect.

      Deductive logic now suggests that the R-L21 map shows migration using a well known technology of that time called a BOAT!

      And as for your namesake to quote wiki "Deductive reasoning allows Holmes to learn a stranger's occupation," and what is Deductive reasoning - from wiki "Deductive reasoning, also deductive logic or logical deduction or, informally, "top-down" logic,[1] is the process of reasoning from one or more statements (premises) to reach a logically certain conclusion.[2]" - which leads be to believe that you do not have the logic or reasoning to understand the facts.


    7. You couldn't respond , reasonably , because you had suggested that Iceland , unoccupied in prehistory , was settled by a “mariner race “ circa 2500 BC .You were only three millennia out . Of all the European countries to choose only you could have picked the one we know for sure was unoccupied . Of course boats brought L21 to Iceland but they were Iron Age viking long ships . That the L21 was brought by slaves is the most likely explanation and one supported by geneticists , and both Icelandic and Irish /Scots historians .
      Wittering on about boats simply evades the error .As always you can’t admit to it and only produce further errors in the evasion .

      No I won’t look at your blog , when I have seen it , it is full of the biggest load of tosh I have seen .Unimaginable multiple factual errors and fantastical opinions . Worth a laugh maybe but there is also a sympathetic sadness attached to the laughs ,which soon abates when the massive chip on the shoulder becomes evident .

      It is a common error but one that has been pointed out many times to you . Holmes uses induction and abduction Simply , the classic “If all of the possible hypotheses are eliminated except for one, then that hypothesis, no matter how unlikely, is the correct hypothesis? “ Is not deductive reasoning it’s inductive as are the majority of Sherlock’s pronouncements .

    8. "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." Max Plank

      Goodbye Sherlock!

    9. Yet another example of being incapable of responding to actual scientific truth and damning evidence . It doesn’t matter what the scientific discipline may be , genetics , astronomy , archaeology , Stonehenge , geography etc. but you manage to misunderstand and get it wrong in an astonishingly consistent manner . As animal lovers we wouldn’t be without you , you manage to prove that light, in the form of unconscious humour , can emanate from the darkest and most dense of black holes .


  2. “What this maps shows is that the traditional East to West migration myth is a nonsense - what It does show that at sometime before 2000BC a mutation occurred in the R1 Haplogroup with a body of people who lived in Ireland/Scotland. “

    The split in Haplogroup R1 into R1a and R1b took place 19,000- 26, 000 BP a very long time before 2000 BC when Scotland and Ireland were in the grip of an Ice Age and a distribution map of L21 which has never been found in Neolithic remains or earlier can’t possibly provide any evidence for that split .

  3. I used R1 as a generic group term. The Parent Haplogroup is actually R1b1a2a1a - if you're going to try and be pedantic, at least get it right!!

  4. R1 , has a specific meaning , far removed from R1b1a2a1a .
    Nobody who knew what they were talking about would have said what you did . It was nonsense

    I did get it the data right .
    You didn't .
    R1b1a2a1a is L11 , the map is of L21 .
    You even managed to get that wrong .
    It's the old story get one bit wrong then it gets worse when attempting to evade the problem.

  5. Your blind as well as dull .

    The distribution map is of L21 . Not L11 or R1.
    It's far more specific .
    Your'e inching your way there ,although it might take a few more generations .